The Middle is supported by Journalism Funding Partners, a nonprofit organization striving to increase the sustainability of local journalism by building connections between donors and news organizations. More information on how you can support the Middle at Listen tooth Middle dot com. Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson along with our house DJ Tolliver and Tolliver We've been covering some of the biggest issues heading into the election here on the show as we inch toward November, and this hour is no different.

The Middle is supported by Journalism Funding Partners, a nonprofit organization striving to increase the sustainability of local journalism by building connections between donors and news organizations. More information on how you can support the Middle at Listen tooth Middle dot com. Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson along with our house DJ Tolliver and Tolliver We've been covering some of the biggest issues heading into the election here on the show as we inch toward November, and this hour is no different.

You mean, we're finally going to talk about the merger between Hawaiian Airlines and Alaska Airlines in the hope they'll deal is tickets somewhere.

You mean, we're finally going to talk about the merger between Hawaiian Airlines and Alaska Airlines in the hope they'll deal is tickets somewhere.

Yeah, right. Actually, Alaska is one of the three states I've never been to, and I'd be happy to go. But we are actually this hour going to be examining NATO, the North Atlantic Treaty organization that now unites thirty two countries the United States included into a strategic military pact. NATO was formed back in nineteen forty nine after World War Two, and Article five of NATO says that an attack on any NATO country is an attack on all of them. It's only been invoked once that was after the nine to eleven attacks on the United States. But the US relationship with NATO could look very different depending on who wins the presidency in November. Vice President Kamala Harris has voiced her strong support for America's European allies, and the Biden administration has of course been an ardent supporter of Ukraine following the Russian invasion. Former President Donald Trump, on the other hand, has said that the US should not protect allies in the Pact if they don't spend the agreed upon two percent of their GDP on defense, and some in the Trump orbit have suggested that he would pull the US out of NATO in a second term, including his vice presidential nominee j d Vance just the other day. So our question this hour, what is the value of NATO to the United States. We're going to get to your calls in a moment at eight four four four middle that's eight four four four six four three three five three. But first, last week we asked you whether media and social media companies have too much sway in the selection. Here are some of the people who didn't make it on air but did leave us a message.

Yeah, right. Actually, Alaska is one of the three states I've never been to, and I'd be happy to go. But we are actually this hour going to be examining NATO, the North Atlantic Treaty organization that now unites thirty two countries the United States included into a strategic military pact. NATO was formed back in nineteen forty nine after World War Two, and Article five of NATO says that an attack on any NATO country is an attack on all of them. It's only been invoked once that was after the nine to eleven attacks on the United States. But the US relationship with NATO could look very different depending on who wins the presidency in November. Vice President Kamala Harris has voiced her strong support for America's European allies, and the Biden administration has of course been an ardent supporter of Ukraine following the Russian invasion. Former President Donald Trump, on the other hand, has said that the US should not protect allies in the Pact if they don't spend the agreed upon two percent of their GDP on defense, and some in the Trump orbit have suggested that he would pull the US out of NATO in a second term, including his vice presidential nominee j d Vance just the other day. So our question this hour, what is the value of NATO to the United States. We're going to get to your calls in a moment at eight four four four middle that's eight four four four six four three three five three. But first, last week we asked you whether media and social media companies have too much sway in the selection. Here are some of the people who didn't make it on air but did leave us a message.

This is Ernest from Salt Lake City, Utah. Is the Mari conifroof Easton.

This is Ernest from Salt Lake City, Utah. Is the Mari conifroof Easton.

Come best from Denver, Colorado.

Come best from Denver, Colorado.

The folks who are watching TV tend to be a little bit more inteligent with the drible news. Most of this junk is coming off. I mean, the junk is about people who start talking about their brothers, mothers, sisters, dog's best friend and it doesn't have any sense to it. But this is the problem. They believe it just because they can see it on their phone.

The folks who are watching TV tend to be a little bit more inteligent with the drible news. Most of this junk is coming off. I mean, the junk is about people who start talking about their brothers, mothers, sisters, dog's best friend and it doesn't have any sense to it. But this is the problem. They believe it just because they can see it on their phone.

The media has come to the point where it is usually leaning either left or right, and they will slant their stories one way or the other.

The media has come to the point where it is usually leaning either left or right, and they will slant their stories one way or the other.

What I find is people of a younger demographic and age are doing the research and are going above and beyond and go find out what's really going on because legacy media has other influences.

What I find is people of a younger demographic and age are doing the research and are going above and beyond and go find out what's really going on because legacy media has other influences.

Media has too much influence what we think, what we see, and legislation should be in order to get things under control.

Media has too much influence what we think, what we see, and legislation should be in order to get things under control.

Well, thanks to everyone who called in, and you can hear that entire episode on our podcast in partnership with iHeart Podcasts on the iHeart app wherever you listen to podcasts. So out of our topic, this hour what is the value of NATO to the United States? Tolliver, what is our number?

Well, thanks to everyone who called in, and you can hear that entire episode on our podcast in partnership with iHeart Podcasts on the iHeart app wherever you listen to podcasts. So out of our topic, this hour what is the value of NATO to the United States? Tolliver, what is our number?

It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three, or you can write to us that listen to the Middle dot com.

It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three, or you can write to us that listen to the Middle dot com.

Let's meet our panel. Journalist Jill Dougherty spent years in Moscow as CNN's bureau chief. She's now a Global Fellow at the Wilson Center. Jill Dougherty, Welcome to the Middle.

Let's meet our panel. Journalist Jill Dougherty spent years in Moscow as CNN's bureau chief. She's now a Global Fellow at the Wilson Center. Jill Dougherty, Welcome to the Middle.

Thank you very much. I really appreciate being here.

Thank you very much. I really appreciate being here.

Jeremy, it's great to have you. And also joining us is the former US Ambassador to the Czech Republic now called Checkia, John Shattuck. He's now a professor of practice in Diplomacy at Tuff's University. Ambassador Shattuck, great to have you with us as well.

Jeremy, it's great to have you. And also joining us is the former US Ambassador to the Czech Republic now called Checkia, John Shattuck. He's now a professor of practice in Diplomacy at Tuff's University. Ambassador Shattuck, great to have you with us as well.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you for having me.

Well, before we get to the phones, let me ask each of you. Do you think the US membership in NATO is at stake in this selection?

Well, before we get to the phones, let me ask each of you. Do you think the US membership in NATO is at stake in this selection?

Jill Doherty, I do you just have to judge by what you said? You know, jd Vance is talking actually I think taking almost more of a let's say forward leaning, you could actually say more extreme position and on you know, pulling out of NATO. If you look at the Democrats, of course they are saying stay in it.

Jill Doherty, I do you just have to judge by what you said? You know, jd Vance is talking actually I think taking almost more of a let's say forward leaning, you could actually say more extreme position and on you know, pulling out of NATO. If you look at the Democrats, of course they are saying stay in it.

Now.

Now.

I think the big question has been how much are all of the allies contributing? And that we can get into. But I mean, right now you have what is it, twenty two of the countries in NATO twenty three sorry, contributing that two percent, and that is actually more than under the Trump administration, which had about nine percent when he left office.

I think the big question has been how much are all of the allies contributing? And that we can get into. But I mean, right now you have what is it, twenty two of the countries in NATO twenty three sorry, contributing that two percent, and that is actually more than under the Trump administration, which had about nine percent when he left office.

John Shaddick just to tell our listeners what jd Vance said, He said in an interview with a YouTuber that the American support for NATO should be predicated on the e you not regulating Elon Musk and his ex social media platform. But what do you think about that issue? Do you think NATO is at stake? The US relationship with NATO's at stake in this election.

John Shaddick just to tell our listeners what jd Vance said, He said in an interview with a YouTuber that the American support for NATO should be predicated on the e you not regulating Elon Musk and his ex social media platform. But what do you think about that issue? Do you think NATO is at stake? The US relationship with NATO's at stake in this election.

Definitely, and it's very important. In fact, i'd say more important today than at any time perhaps since the end of the Cold War. And the end of the Cold War of course, came in part about because NATO was formed, as you said at the very beginning of the show back in nineteen forty nine, nineteen fifty when NATO got started the Allies, that is, the European Allies and the United States, but the United States was the major player because the Allies have been so severely damaged in the war, really rallied around NATO as a defense against Soviet subversion and incursion, and as a result, I think over a long period of time seventy years, the peace was kept in Europe the result of NATO. Now we're in a very volatile world and we all know what's happened in Ukraine. Russian aggression has basically tried to take back take Ukraine and cut it out from its own sovereignty, and NATO really stands in the way of that. So it's a critical time for NATO and we need it more than ever. And NATO protects American security by basically having allies who can do a lot of the fighting, so we don't do it need to do it ourselves.

Definitely, and it's very important. In fact, i'd say more important today than at any time perhaps since the end of the Cold War. And the end of the Cold War of course, came in part about because NATO was formed, as you said at the very beginning of the show back in nineteen forty nine, nineteen fifty when NATO got started the Allies, that is, the European Allies and the United States, but the United States was the major player because the Allies have been so severely damaged in the war, really rallied around NATO as a defense against Soviet subversion and incursion, and as a result, I think over a long period of time seventy years, the peace was kept in Europe the result of NATO. Now we're in a very volatile world and we all know what's happened in Ukraine. Russian aggression has basically tried to take back take Ukraine and cut it out from its own sovereignty, and NATO really stands in the way of that. So it's a critical time for NATO and we need it more than ever. And NATO protects American security by basically having allies who can do a lot of the fighting, so we don't do it need to do it ourselves.

But why, John Shaddock, are there still at least ten countries in NATO that are not spending the agreed upon two percent of their GDP on defense and giving people like Donald Trump that ammunition to say, why are we in this thing? They're not paying their fair share?

But why, John Shaddock, are there still at least ten countries in NATO that are not spending the agreed upon two percent of their GDP on defense and giving people like Donald Trump that ammunition to say, why are we in this thing? They're not paying their fair share?

Well, I'll give Trump some credit as well as others. By the way, it was not just Trump. Other Americans, going all the way back to the very beginning, have called upon Europe to spend more for their own defense. And you know, I think, as Jill said, we've gotten many more of the allies now are spending at least two percent sometimes more of their GDP on defense, and in fact, in the defense of Ukraine, the Europeans have spent significantly more than the United States. So you know, yes, there are more. There are a few countries that still need to come in and spend more money, and I think that that will happen. That's very much the American position that we want Europe to bear the Barrett's share of the burden.

Well, I'll give Trump some credit as well as others. By the way, it was not just Trump. Other Americans, going all the way back to the very beginning, have called upon Europe to spend more for their own defense. And you know, I think, as Jill said, we've gotten many more of the allies now are spending at least two percent sometimes more of their GDP on defense, and in fact, in the defense of Ukraine, the Europeans have spent significantly more than the United States. So you know, yes, there are more. There are a few countries that still need to come in and spend more money, and I think that that will happen. That's very much the American position that we want Europe to bear the Barrett's share of the burden.

Let's get to the phones, and Mary is in Parksville, Tennessee. Mary, what do you think about the value of NATO to the United States.

Let's get to the phones, and Mary is in Parksville, Tennessee. Mary, what do you think about the value of NATO to the United States.

Well, generally, I believe in coalition. I think cooperation makes strengths and efficiency.

Well, generally, I believe in coalition. I think cooperation makes strengths and efficiency.

Hopefully, so you think it's you think it's a valuable partnership.

Hopefully, so you think it's you think it's a valuable partnership.

I do.

I do.

I must admit that I am not as educated as I should meet about MITO and about foreign policy, but I just think that that cooperation.

I must admit that I am not as educated as I should meet about MITO and about foreign policy, but I just think that that cooperation.

Is a good thing.

Is a good thing.

Mary, Thank you for that. Jill Doherty, I have to say for people who like Mary may have questions about NATO, it's been so merged in with the idea of defending against Russia in recent years, but we should remember it's about a lot more than Russia.

Mary, Thank you for that. Jill Doherty, I have to say for people who like Mary may have questions about NATO, it's been so merged in with the idea of defending against Russia in recent years, but we should remember it's about a lot more than Russia.

Oh yeah, I mean, they've had operations in Afghanistan, Iraq, Kosevo, Somalia, and now the discussion actually is about Asia, because you know, it's not, as the head of NATO just recently said, it's not just a little part of the neighborhood. You know, the entire world is knit together. And what China does, what Japan does with the Philippines, what we do, it's all kind of one world. And you know, I also would say to Mary that it's we sometimes think of NATO as a military alliance, and it certainly is, but there's also a values component to that, you know, Western values, and I think that that's really important because when countries come in, they let's say, some of the newer countries, you know, you have Finland and Sweden obviously democratic countries, but some of the other countries, like the people the countries want to be members, Ukraine, Georgia. It's not just the military component. Is are you trying to get rid of corruption? Are you you know, do you have a civil society. It's that type of thing also that knits these countries together.

Oh yeah, I mean, they've had operations in Afghanistan, Iraq, Kosevo, Somalia, and now the discussion actually is about Asia, because you know, it's not, as the head of NATO just recently said, it's not just a little part of the neighborhood. You know, the entire world is knit together. And what China does, what Japan does with the Philippines, what we do, it's all kind of one world. And you know, I also would say to Mary that it's we sometimes think of NATO as a military alliance, and it certainly is, but there's also a values component to that, you know, Western values, and I think that that's really important because when countries come in, they let's say, some of the newer countries, you know, you have Finland and Sweden obviously democratic countries, but some of the other countries, like the people the countries want to be members, Ukraine, Georgia. It's not just the military component. Is are you trying to get rid of corruption? Are you you know, do you have a civil society. It's that type of thing also that knits these countries together.

Well, John Shattick, you were the ambassador of the Czech Republic when they entered NATO, right, I mean, what was what was valuable both to the Czech Republic to get into the alliance and to the US to have check in the alliance.

Well, John Shattick, you were the ambassador of the Czech Republic when they entered NATO, right, I mean, what was what was valuable both to the Czech Republic to get into the alliance and to the US to have check in the alliance.

Well, the Czechs were very concerned. I was there ten years after the end of the Cold War, and I was there in nineteen ninety nine. In the next couple of years, and the Czechs were very concerned about Russia, which even before Putin had you know, of course, Russia had always been breathing hard down there next and They've managed to develop a fairly secured democracy by then. And they looked to NATO, and they were very proud to become members of NATO. They looked to NATO as a defense against the possibility that they might end up being attacked from the east, as they had been so often in the past. They had long memories in that regard, and you know, they'd been forced to join the Warsaw Pact, which was the old Soviet alternative to NATO, and now to be able to become members of NATO made them not only proud, but feel more secure and in fact, I think made them more secure.

Well, the Czechs were very concerned. I was there ten years after the end of the Cold War, and I was there in nineteen ninety nine. In the next couple of years, and the Czechs were very concerned about Russia, which even before Putin had you know, of course, Russia had always been breathing hard down there next and They've managed to develop a fairly secured democracy by then. And they looked to NATO, and they were very proud to become members of NATO. They looked to NATO as a defense against the possibility that they might end up being attacked from the east, as they had been so often in the past. They had long memories in that regard, and you know, they'd been forced to join the Warsaw Pact, which was the old Soviet alternative to NATO, and now to be able to become members of NATO made them not only proud, but feel more secure and in fact, I think made them more secure.

And what about to the United States, just briefly, what was the import of Czech Republic being in NATO?

And what about to the United States, just briefly, what was the import of Czech Republic being in NATO?

Well, I think, you know, the United States, as I said earlier, benefits both directly and indirectly from NATO. It benefits directly because it's part of the large security connections that we have in the world. We have allies all over and it's very important to have that. But also what was most important was that it was not going to be the US who was going to do the work. It was going to be the Czechs who were going to do the work defending themselves.

Well, I think, you know, the United States, as I said earlier, benefits both directly and indirectly from NATO. It benefits directly because it's part of the large security connections that we have in the world. We have allies all over and it's very important to have that. But also what was most important was that it was not going to be the US who was going to do the work. It was going to be the Czechs who were going to do the work defending themselves.

Well, and Tolliver I mentioned the only time that Article five of NATO's ever been invoked was after the nine to eleven attacks against the United States in two thousand and one.

Well, and Tolliver I mentioned the only time that Article five of NATO's ever been invoked was after the nine to eleven attacks against the United States in two thousand and one.

Yeah, here's George Robertson, who is the Secretary General of NATO back then, speaking the day after the attacks.

Yeah, here's George Robertson, who is the Secretary General of NATO back then, speaking the day after the attacks.

The Council agreed if it is determined that this attack was directed from abroad against the United States, it shall be regarded as an action covered by Article five of the Washington Treaty, which states that an armed attack against one or more of the Allies in Europe or in North America shall be considered an attack against them all.

The Council agreed if it is determined that this attack was directed from abroad against the United States, it shall be regarded as an action covered by Article five of the Washington Treaty, which states that an armed attack against one or more of the Allies in Europe or in North America shall be considered an attack against them all.

Got it? It's so crazy to hear that now, what twenty three years after nine to eleven, Tolliver. I do want to remind our listeners are loyal podcast listeners, that you can contribute to the Middle, especially as we ramp up our coverage heading into the election. We're going to be doing a number of podcast extra specials coming up, and you can make a tax deductrible contribution at listen to Themiddle dot com in any amount, any amount that you see fit. We really appreciate every single dollar. This is an independent production after all, soo listen to the Middle dot com and we'll be right back with more of the Middle. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning in the Middle as a national call in show, we're focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically. Or maybe you just want to meet in the Middle. This hour, we're asking you what is the value of NATO to the United States? Caliver, what is the number of people to call in?

Got it? It's so crazy to hear that now, what twenty three years after nine to eleven, Tolliver. I do want to remind our listeners are loyal podcast listeners, that you can contribute to the Middle, especially as we ramp up our coverage heading into the election. We're going to be doing a number of podcast extra specials coming up, and you can make a tax deductrible contribution at listen to Themiddle dot com in any amount, any amount that you see fit. We really appreciate every single dollar. This is an independent production after all, soo listen to the Middle dot com and we'll be right back with more of the Middle. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning in the Middle as a national call in show, we're focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically. Or maybe you just want to meet in the Middle. This hour, we're asking you what is the value of NATO to the United States? Caliver, what is the number of people to call in?

It's eight four four four Middle, It's eight four four four sixty four and three three five three. You can also write to us to listen to the Middle dot com or on social media.

It's eight four four four Middle, It's eight four four four sixty four and three three five three. You can also write to us to listen to the Middle dot com or on social media.

And I always feel bad giving people the number and then seeing that all the lines are full, so sorry, but leave a message if you can't get through it. I'm joined by journalist Jill Dougherty, who spent years based in Moscow and for US Ambassador to the Czech Republic John Shaddock, now at Toughs University. And let's get to those phones. And Eric is in Chicago. Eric, welcome to the Middle.

And I always feel bad giving people the number and then seeing that all the lines are full, so sorry, but leave a message if you can't get through it. I'm joined by journalist Jill Dougherty, who spent years based in Moscow and for US Ambassador to the Czech Republic John Shaddock, now at Toughs University. And let's get to those phones. And Eric is in Chicago. Eric, welcome to the Middle.

Go ahead, Yes, thank you. I believe that NATO is incredibly important to the United States and to the citizens of the United States because it seems like there's a concern, an overly concern about money, and it's really not about money. It's about the coily. It's about the checks and balances because the nations, we hold ourselves accountable. I mean, Germany just can't decide to take over Spain and England can't just decide to go to war with France, you know, without us all becoming involved and talking them down off of that precipice. But I mean, this is just reeks of American isolationism to try to pull us away from those checks and balances.

Go ahead, Yes, thank you. I believe that NATO is incredibly important to the United States and to the citizens of the United States because it seems like there's a concern, an overly concern about money, and it's really not about money. It's about the coily. It's about the checks and balances because the nations, we hold ourselves accountable. I mean, Germany just can't decide to take over Spain and England can't just decide to go to war with France, you know, without us all becoming involved and talking them down off of that precipice. But I mean, this is just reeks of American isolationism to try to pull us away from those checks and balances.

And is this an issue that is important enough that you would make your decision in the presidential election because of it.

And is this an issue that is important enough that you would make your decision in the presidential election because of it.

Well, there's other issues about my decision, but yes, I mean, it's definitely a contributing factor. I'm a world traveler and I appreciate the way that I am treated with my American passport and the freedoms that that allows. And if we move to this, let's walk away from Europe, let's walk away from the world stage. When we're the strongest military in the world. How does that look? It makes us look weak?

Well, there's other issues about my decision, but yes, I mean, it's definitely a contributing factor. I'm a world traveler and I appreciate the way that I am treated with my American passport and the freedoms that that allows. And if we move to this, let's walk away from Europe, let's walk away from the world stage. When we're the strongest military in the world. How does that look? It makes us look weak?

Eric, thank you for that. Jill Dougherty, your thoughts on Eric's comments there.

Eric, thank you for that. Jill Dougherty, your thoughts on Eric's comments there.

I think he makes several good points. I mean, you know, walking away from our allies, you know, thinking of Trump, let's get into the election a little bit Trump and then what was happening you know after Trump and now with Kamala Harris and the Biden administration, is that there's a way of telling your allies that you need to cough out more money. And as Ambassador Shaddock said, that goes way back, did not start with Donald Trump. Now, I think one of the factors that actually brought people on board to spend more money and to you know, come up to at least two percent is the invasion of Ukraine. I mean, you look at after twenty fourteen, when Russia next illegally Crimea and then back in February of twenty twenty two that will know, freaked out Europe and you had two countries that never wanted to be involved in NATO or you know, they're completely independent, non aligned. And again that's Finland and Sweden. They join, you know, that's Vladimir Putin's nightmare. So keeping these countries in I think, and let's say, working with our allies to create a stronger union to face Putin is extremely important.

I think he makes several good points. I mean, you know, walking away from our allies, you know, thinking of Trump, let's get into the election a little bit Trump and then what was happening you know after Trump and now with Kamala Harris and the Biden administration, is that there's a way of telling your allies that you need to cough out more money. And as Ambassador Shaddock said, that goes way back, did not start with Donald Trump. Now, I think one of the factors that actually brought people on board to spend more money and to you know, come up to at least two percent is the invasion of Ukraine. I mean, you look at after twenty fourteen, when Russia next illegally Crimea and then back in February of twenty twenty two that will know, freaked out Europe and you had two countries that never wanted to be involved in NATO or you know, they're completely independent, non aligned. And again that's Finland and Sweden. They join, you know, that's Vladimir Putin's nightmare. So keeping these countries in I think, and let's say, working with our allies to create a stronger union to face Putin is extremely important.

Let's go to Steve, who's in Dallas, Texas. Steve, welcome to the middle What do you think about NATO and its value to the US?

Let's go to Steve, who's in Dallas, Texas. Steve, welcome to the middle What do you think about NATO and its value to the US?

Well, thank you for taking a call.

Well, thank you for taking a call.

I do believe that.

I do believe that.

Is really, I think more importantly a question for NATO. How important is NATO to the European nations. They're the ones that are really citing this because the moment the United States decides that we're not going to pay our share and we're not going to pay their share, we're effectively out. So this is really, I think a European question. How important is NATO to them? And if it's important, why don't they pay their share.

Is really, I think more importantly a question for NATO. How important is NATO to the European nations. They're the ones that are really citing this because the moment the United States decides that we're not going to pay our share and we're not going to pay their share, we're effectively out. So this is really, I think a European question. How important is NATO to them? And if it's important, why don't they pay their share.

What do you think, though, Steve, about the fact that the only time that Article five has ever been invoked by NATO was about the attacks on the United States and that many soldiers from other NATO countries ended up dying in the war in Afghanistan on behalf of the United States.

What do you think, though, Steve, about the fact that the only time that Article five has ever been invoked by NATO was about the attacks on the United States and that many soldiers from other NATO countries ended up dying in the war in Afghanistan on behalf of the United States.

Well, I'm not suggesting necessarily that NATO is a bad idea. I'm just simply saying that if you think it's a good idea, then pay for it. It's really that simple. They agreed to this going in. We agreed, all of us agreed. But they're not doing their share. This does go back a long long time. Presidents have complained about this for a really long time. Nothing has happened. They haven't done it until Donald Trump made an issue out of it, and I think they will pay up. I think they will do it if they're faced with no NATO.

Well, I'm not suggesting necessarily that NATO is a bad idea. I'm just simply saying that if you think it's a good idea, then pay for it. It's really that simple. They agreed to this going in. We agreed, all of us agreed. But they're not doing their share. This does go back a long long time. Presidents have complained about this for a really long time. Nothing has happened. They haven't done it until Donald Trump made an issue out of it, and I think they will pay up. I think they will do it if they're faced with no NATO.

Steve, thank you for that call, Ambassador Static. What do you say to people like Steve? You know, if you look at the polls right now, Democrats are far more likely to be in favor of the US involvement in NATO than Republicans.

Steve, thank you for that call, Ambassador Static. What do you say to people like Steve? You know, if you look at the polls right now, Democrats are far more likely to be in favor of the US involvement in NATO than Republicans.

Well, I think, really it's not the biggest catalytic factor, if you will, about building up NATO is Putin himself, because I think he woke the European nations up to the importance of their own defense. And it's really in the last couple of years since, particularly since the invasion of Ukraine, that Europeans have mobilized huge amounts of military support and assistants that have gone to Ukraine and also have increased their own internal spending on their own defense systems, not just contributions to NATO's. So I think if we didn't have NATO today, we would have to very quickly figure out how to invent it, and that wouldn't be easy in a short period of time to confront buten In who is basically trying to change the whole makeup of Europe, and if he's manages to succeed in Ukraine. He could well threaten Europe directly in the Poland in the Baltic country. So yes, Europe needs to be very active, and I think they are very active in their own defense right now, and that's why they're doing more on behalf of NATO.

Well, I think, really it's not the biggest catalytic factor, if you will, about building up NATO is Putin himself, because I think he woke the European nations up to the importance of their own defense. And it's really in the last couple of years since, particularly since the invasion of Ukraine, that Europeans have mobilized huge amounts of military support and assistants that have gone to Ukraine and also have increased their own internal spending on their own defense systems, not just contributions to NATO's. So I think if we didn't have NATO today, we would have to very quickly figure out how to invent it, and that wouldn't be easy in a short period of time to confront buten In who is basically trying to change the whole makeup of Europe, and if he's manages to succeed in Ukraine. He could well threaten Europe directly in the Poland in the Baltic country. So yes, Europe needs to be very active, and I think they are very active in their own defense right now, and that's why they're doing more on behalf of NATO.

Let's go to Zach, who's in Kansas City, Missouri. Zach, welcome to the middle go ahead.

Let's go to Zach, who's in Kansas City, Missouri. Zach, welcome to the middle go ahead.

Hey, thanks for taking a call.

Hey, thanks for taking a call.

So, as a young person, I'm going to turn twenty six, you know, I don't even remember the Soviet Union existing, and neither do other folks my age and so well, I'm involved enough to be calling into a politics radio show. I think a lot of those my age just kind of don't think about it. And I think that's unfortunate because to young people who don't remember, you know, when Europe was a much more dangerous place.

So, as a young person, I'm going to turn twenty six, you know, I don't even remember the Soviet Union existing, and neither do other folks my age and so well, I'm involved enough to be calling into a politics radio show. I think a lot of those my age just kind of don't think about it. And I think that's unfortunate because to young people who don't remember, you know, when Europe was a much more dangerous place.

It's even all we kind of think of it as a spot to go study abroad and take a backpacking trip, but that's only possible because of NATO. NATO is what made Europe safe. Europe's history, you know, in the twentieth century is really awful. It's it's horrific and the only reason, in my estimation, anyways that you know, authoritarians can't rise to power and try and take over the neighbors like they have for centuries is NATO, and that that mutual defense brings everyone to the you know, diplomatic table instead of you know, militarization and that cycle of violence.

It's even all we kind of think of it as a spot to go study abroad and take a backpacking trip, but that's only possible because of NATO. NATO is what made Europe safe. Europe's history, you know, in the twentieth century is really awful. It's it's horrific and the only reason, in my estimation, anyways that you know, authoritarians can't rise to power and try and take over the neighbors like they have for centuries is NATO, and that that mutual defense brings everyone to the you know, diplomatic table instead of you know, militarization and that cycle of violence.

Zach, I'm so glad you called that's such a great point about people who obviously are younger and haven't lived through some of these things. I mean, I think back to my own childhood and thinking, you know, my grandparents were living through World War Two and I wasn't, you know, I was just I wasn't even a you know, sparkle in my parents' eye, Tolliver. But Jill Dougherty about what about Zach's point of so many people that don't have, you know, firsthand experience with the Soviet Union, but maybe they have an old globe that still has it on it or something like that, but that just reminding them of the relevance of NATO and the reasons it's there.

Zach, I'm so glad you called that's such a great point about people who obviously are younger and haven't lived through some of these things. I mean, I think back to my own childhood and thinking, you know, my grandparents were living through World War Two and I wasn't, you know, I was just I wasn't even a you know, sparkle in my parents' eye, Tolliver. But Jill Dougherty about what about Zach's point of so many people that don't have, you know, firsthand experience with the Soviet Union, but maybe they have an old globe that still has it on it or something like that, but that just reminding them of the relevance of NATO and the reasons it's there.

Yeah, I was really glad that Zach said what he said, because you know, let's let's look at it this way. Let's pretend all of a sudden NATO falls apart. Every country in Europe is on its own, and little tiny countries like one of my favorite countries happens to be Estonia, and it has a population of like, you know, two and a half million people. It's very you know, a tenth of New York, and yet they are you know, contributing actually more way more than two percent. But if they were left on their own, they would be swallowed up in a minute, and every country would be on its own. Putin would really take advantage. There's no question. Even with NATO, he is nibbling around the edges of a lot of those countries. So I think, you know, Americans, really we don't know, as Ambassador Shaddock said, we don't know the real downside because NATO has kept us safe for the past seventy five years. But if it hadn't been there, we could have been involved in a number of wars.

Yeah, I was really glad that Zach said what he said, because you know, let's let's look at it this way. Let's pretend all of a sudden NATO falls apart. Every country in Europe is on its own, and little tiny countries like one of my favorite countries happens to be Estonia, and it has a population of like, you know, two and a half million people. It's very you know, a tenth of New York, and yet they are you know, contributing actually more way more than two percent. But if they were left on their own, they would be swallowed up in a minute, and every country would be on its own. Putin would really take advantage. There's no question. Even with NATO, he is nibbling around the edges of a lot of those countries. So I think, you know, Americans, really we don't know, as Ambassador Shaddock said, we don't know the real downside because NATO has kept us safe for the past seventy five years. But if it hadn't been there, we could have been involved in a number of wars.

John Shaddick, By the way, could Trump pull the US out of NATO on his own or would Congress have to get involved in that?

John Shaddick, By the way, could Trump pull the US out of NATO on his own or would Congress have to get involved in that?

Couldn't do it on his own? No, I mean, he could make it very unpleasant. He could obviously do whatever he could possibly do politically to influence Congress, but it is a NATO, it is a treaty, is a a founding member of this treaty, and a treaty cannot be simply abrogated unilaterally by a president. So Trump would not have much authority to do it, but he could start pushing his weight around. My real fear in terms of the current situation, my concern is that we're Trump essentially to announce that he was going to pull out of NATO or reduce significantly the American support for NATO. I think the European countries would then begin to really scramble to try to make sure that they could defend themselves in the event that Putin and Russia were to move on beyond Ukraine, and you know, NATO could collapse, but the individual countries, as Jill just said, would end up having to kind of defend themselves, and that would be a very very dangerous situation, and American soldiers might end up being called in as a result.

Couldn't do it on his own? No, I mean, he could make it very unpleasant. He could obviously do whatever he could possibly do politically to influence Congress, but it is a NATO, it is a treaty, is a a founding member of this treaty, and a treaty cannot be simply abrogated unilaterally by a president. So Trump would not have much authority to do it, but he could start pushing his weight around. My real fear in terms of the current situation, my concern is that we're Trump essentially to announce that he was going to pull out of NATO or reduce significantly the American support for NATO. I think the European countries would then begin to really scramble to try to make sure that they could defend themselves in the event that Putin and Russia were to move on beyond Ukraine, and you know, NATO could collapse, but the individual countries, as Jill just said, would end up having to kind of defend themselves, and that would be a very very dangerous situation, and American soldiers might end up being called in as a result.

Let's go to Karen, who's in Cherokee County, North Carolina. Karen, welcome to the middle guy.

Let's go to Karen, who's in Cherokee County, North Carolina. Karen, welcome to the middle guy.

I love, I loved all your people and their opinions, and I have to tell you I'm seventy four. I was nine years old when I was in South Florida and Russia was ninety miles away in Cuba. I saw American troops heading down south to our base in Homestead, and my uncle was calling my mother and telling her she had to come back to New England with me. And my family was scared to death that the Russians were gonna bomb us. So knowing that fear and remembering that, when you look at Europe, Europe has to stand together and we need to support them. We don't want another World War two, we don't want a World War three. And if you leave these people on their own, they're going to have nuclear weapons quite rapidly, as fast as they can, and that would be a mess. Can you imagine all those companies, all those countries having individual nuclear weapons. Can you imagine what a mess this world would be if Russia let's go well, when Russia is not going to New anybody because they know that it will come back on them and destroy their own country. We need to stand with our alliances and our treaties, and we need to be true to the people that we have said we would defend, because they certainly do favors for us. And we need to recognize this. We're not in a world alone. We're in a world of people.

I love, I loved all your people and their opinions, and I have to tell you I'm seventy four. I was nine years old when I was in South Florida and Russia was ninety miles away in Cuba. I saw American troops heading down south to our base in Homestead, and my uncle was calling my mother and telling her she had to come back to New England with me. And my family was scared to death that the Russians were gonna bomb us. So knowing that fear and remembering that, when you look at Europe, Europe has to stand together and we need to support them. We don't want another World War two, we don't want a World War three. And if you leave these people on their own, they're going to have nuclear weapons quite rapidly, as fast as they can, and that would be a mess. Can you imagine all those companies, all those countries having individual nuclear weapons. Can you imagine what a mess this world would be if Russia let's go well, when Russia is not going to New anybody because they know that it will come back on them and destroy their own country. We need to stand with our alliances and our treaties, and we need to be true to the people that we have said we would defend, because they certainly do favors for us. And we need to recognize this. We're not in a world alone. We're in a world of people.

Karen, thank you so much that what a great viewpoint to bring. Really appreciate it. To Oliver, I know a lot is coming in online as well.

Karen, thank you so much that what a great viewpoint to bring. Really appreciate it. To Oliver, I know a lot is coming in online as well.

Yes, so much. Doug, who is independent and UNDECIDEDED, says, I agree that NATO has value, but when and what can the US do to get these large economies to meet their obligations. I've read that Canada may not meet their obligations for a number of years. Classic Canada Phil and Wilson, Wyoming says NATO is a bulwark against fascism. Fascism is experiencing a resurgence across the globe, but Trump is an avowed admirer of fascist leaders. It's imperative that the United States be a member of NATO and support NATO to the fullest extent. I will say, if we have any callers out there who are who want us to leave NATO, I think we'd like to hear from them too.

Yes, so much. Doug, who is independent and UNDECIDEDED, says, I agree that NATO has value, but when and what can the US do to get these large economies to meet their obligations. I've read that Canada may not meet their obligations for a number of years. Classic Canada Phil and Wilson, Wyoming says NATO is a bulwark against fascism. Fascism is experiencing a resurgence across the globe, but Trump is an avowed admirer of fascist leaders. It's imperative that the United States be a member of NATO and support NATO to the fullest extent. I will say, if we have any callers out there who are who want us to leave NATO, I think we'd like to hear from them too.

Right.

Right.

Well, when we hear that caller in Dallas, Texas seemed to bit skeptain. Well, let's go to John who's in Allentown, Pennsylvania. John, Welcome to the Middle What do you think about NATO.

Well, when we hear that caller in Dallas, Texas seemed to bit skeptain. Well, let's go to John who's in Allentown, Pennsylvania. John, Welcome to the Middle What do you think about NATO.

Yeah, like the caller who's twenty six, I'm a bit younger. I'm only twenty, but I am of the very firm opinion that we need to leave NATO. NATO is not a benefit to the United States. NATO benefits Europe.

Yeah, like the caller who's twenty six, I'm a bit younger. I'm only twenty, but I am of the very firm opinion that we need to leave NATO. NATO is not a benefit to the United States. NATO benefits Europe.

You know.

You know.

For a few callers, I think a lot of them need to maybe press rush up on their history. The caller talking about how in the nineteen and nineteen sixty three Russia was only ninety miles away. She forgets, however, that the United States had placed nuclear missiles in Turkey, only a few miles, only about a few hundred miles from the Soviet Union before placing before the Soviets placed nuclear missiles in Cuba. You know the caller who or one of your panelists who talked about Estonia. Estonia was a sovereign country for thirteen year years after peacefully leaving the Soviet Union in the Velvet Revolution. If Russia was so hell bent on taking over Eastern Europe, why would they not have invaded during those thirteen years?

For a few callers, I think a lot of them need to maybe press rush up on their history. The caller talking about how in the nineteen and nineteen sixty three Russia was only ninety miles away. She forgets, however, that the United States had placed nuclear missiles in Turkey, only a few miles, only about a few hundred miles from the Soviet Union before placing before the Soviets placed nuclear missiles in Cuba. You know the caller who or one of your panelists who talked about Estonia. Estonia was a sovereign country for thirteen year years after peacefully leaving the Soviet Union in the Velvet Revolution. If Russia was so hell bent on taking over Eastern Europe, why would they not have invaded during those thirteen years?

Well, you know what I'm gonna let I'm gonna let Jill Doherty respond to that, John, thank you, thank you for that call. I appreciate it. And Jill Doherty is Jill Doherty your respect.

Well, you know what I'm gonna let I'm gonna let Jill Doherty respond to that, John, thank you, thank you for that call. I appreciate it. And Jill Doherty is Jill Doherty your respect.

There are a number of points that you made. I think maybe the most important is in essence, what you're saying is Europe is not our business and it predict NATO protects only Europe. Let's think what would happen if there were no NATO and Putin invades or takes over countries in Europe. You would obviously have a war, and maybe a number of different wars. Would the United States stand back and let Europe blow up? I don't think so, because it would affect everything. It would affect world economy. We'd have, you know, a blazing war in Europe. This would be like World War two. We would have to get involved, and with NATO, we are in it together, and that puts off Vladimir Putin from even trying to do that. So I think, you know it's to me. What I tried to do is figure out, okay, if it did not exist, what would happen? And I guarantee you I am convinced that we would be in probably a world war if NATO were suddenly to disappear and we pulled out.

There are a number of points that you made. I think maybe the most important is in essence, what you're saying is Europe is not our business and it predict NATO protects only Europe. Let's think what would happen if there were no NATO and Putin invades or takes over countries in Europe. You would obviously have a war, and maybe a number of different wars. Would the United States stand back and let Europe blow up? I don't think so, because it would affect everything. It would affect world economy. We'd have, you know, a blazing war in Europe. This would be like World War two. We would have to get involved, and with NATO, we are in it together, and that puts off Vladimir Putin from even trying to do that. So I think, you know it's to me. What I tried to do is figure out, okay, if it did not exist, what would happen? And I guarantee you I am convinced that we would be in probably a world war if NATO were suddenly to disappear and we pulled out.

John Tattock, do you agree with that?

John Tattock, do you agree with that?

Yeah, well, I agree with that, and I'd go even further, I'd say, and I think NATO is above all a huge deterrent. I think Jill is alluding to that. It's not just a kind of military operation that is always confronting on borders, but it's a deterrent against attack. And I think think it actually acted in some ways as a deterrent during the thirteen years that the caller was talking about that Estonia was independent before it was a member of NATO. I think had NATO been had Estonia been attacked by Russia during that period, I think certainly NATO would have mobilized. I don't know whether, I don't know exactly what it would have done, but I think it ended up being a fairly major deterrent NATO against a Russian attack of Estonia even before Estonia became a member.

Yeah, well, I agree with that, and I'd go even further, I'd say, and I think NATO is above all a huge deterrent. I think Jill is alluding to that. It's not just a kind of military operation that is always confronting on borders, but it's a deterrent against attack. And I think think it actually acted in some ways as a deterrent during the thirteen years that the caller was talking about that Estonia was independent before it was a member of NATO. I think had NATO been had Estonia been attacked by Russia during that period, I think certainly NATO would have mobilized. I don't know whether, I don't know exactly what it would have done, but I think it ended up being a fairly major deterrent NATO against a Russian attack of Estonia even before Estonia became a member.

You know, Russia, Vladimir Putin has made clear he does not want Ukraine to be a member of NATO, wants assurances that that won't happen. Do you think, John Shaddock, that Western countries also don't want Ukraine to be a member of NATO? Because it would mean that they'd have to defend it.

You know, Russia, Vladimir Putin has made clear he does not want Ukraine to be a member of NATO, wants assurances that that won't happen. Do you think, John Shaddock, that Western countries also don't want Ukraine to be a member of NATO? Because it would mean that they'd have to defend it.

Well, I think, you know, I think the question of NATO membership for Ukraine is a complicated one. My own position is that they shouldn't be a member right now. They ought to be brought into the European Union given a pathway, they have a paathway to join Europe and become part of the overall European Union. But I think the integration of Ukraine into NATO would be not only logistically complicated, but also politically complicated. It would, and it would be highly provocative. So I think NATO needs to stay as a member as a membership issue on the back burner for the moment.

Well, I think, you know, I think the question of NATO membership for Ukraine is a complicated one. My own position is that they shouldn't be a member right now. They ought to be brought into the European Union given a pathway, they have a paathway to join Europe and become part of the overall European Union. But I think the integration of Ukraine into NATO would be not only logistically complicated, but also politically complicated. It would, and it would be highly provocative. So I think NATO needs to stay as a member as a membership issue on the back burner for the moment.

Tolliver. As we mentioned, NATO was formed in nineteen forty nine, right after World War Two.

Tolliver. As we mentioned, NATO was formed in nineteen forty nine, right after World War Two.

Yeah, here's President Harry Truman, not the sheriff in Twin Peaks, speaking when the treaty was first tigned in nineteen forty nine.

Yeah, here's President Harry Truman, not the sheriff in Twin Peaks, speaking when the treaty was first tigned in nineteen forty nine.

A simple document. If it had have existed in nineteen fourteen and in nineteen thirty nine, supported by the nations who are represented here today, I believe it would have prevented the acts of aggression which led to two World Wars.

A simple document. If it had have existed in nineteen fourteen and in nineteen thirty nine, supported by the nations who are represented here today, I believe it would have prevented the acts of aggression which led to two World Wars.

Harry Truman there and Talver. You know what our podcast listeners don't know is that the people who heard this on the radio got to hear you play a special song right now.

Harry Truman there and Talver. You know what our podcast listeners don't know is that the people who heard this on the radio got to hear you play a special song right now.

And I'm like a mystery DJ to half the audios, you know.

And I'm like a mystery DJ to half the audios, you know.

To half the audience right because we don't have the rights for the podcast. But what did you play coming out of that right right there?

To half the audience right because we don't have the rights for the podcast. But what did you play coming out of that right right there?

I played Abbo because they just joined NATO this year and they're from Sweeten Obviously.

I played Abbo because they just joined NATO this year and they're from Sweeten Obviously.

Sweeden just joined NATO this year, not Abah, my God of us. Well, we'll be right back with more of the Middle. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. This hour, we're asking you what is the value of NATO to the United States. You can call us at eight four four four Middle that's eight four four four six four three three five three, or you can reach out at Listen to the Middle dot com. I'm joined by former US Ambassador to the Czech Republic John Shaddock and journalist Jill Dougherty now at the Wilson Center. And let's go back to the phones and Nathan, who is calling from Lincoln, Nebraska. Nathan, Welcome to the Middle.

Sweeden just joined NATO this year, not Abah, my God of us. Well, we'll be right back with more of the Middle. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. This hour, we're asking you what is the value of NATO to the United States. You can call us at eight four four four Middle that's eight four four four six four three three five three, or you can reach out at Listen to the Middle dot com. I'm joined by former US Ambassador to the Czech Republic John Shaddock and journalist Jill Dougherty now at the Wilson Center. And let's go back to the phones and Nathan, who is calling from Lincoln, Nebraska. Nathan, Welcome to the Middle.

Go ahead, Hi in about two thousand and five, right after Vladimir Putin had been first reelected, I actually took a trip in college to the Russian far East, to a former military district called the Chakotka, and there I met a lot of young men who loved talking about how Putin was strong, Bush was weak. They wanted to join the Russian military and hopefully get the chance to fight Americans one day. You know, it was shocking stuff to my years, but it was the result of the constant misinformation, disinformation that just pervades Russian society, and so NATO, to my mind, is not just some sort of theoretical backstop, what if, you know, in case things get out of hand in Europe. I think it is an immediate bulwark every day against a society that is mobilized against us in Russia and you know, throughout its alliances.

Go ahead, Hi in about two thousand and five, right after Vladimir Putin had been first reelected, I actually took a trip in college to the Russian far East, to a former military district called the Chakotka, and there I met a lot of young men who loved talking about how Putin was strong, Bush was weak. They wanted to join the Russian military and hopefully get the chance to fight Americans one day. You know, it was shocking stuff to my years, but it was the result of the constant misinformation, disinformation that just pervades Russian society, and so NATO, to my mind, is not just some sort of theoretical backstop, what if, you know, in case things get out of hand in Europe. I think it is an immediate bulwark every day against a society that is mobilized against us in Russia and you know, throughout its alliances.

Nathan, thank you for that. Jill Doherty, you spent many many years based in Moscow until basically the beginning of the war, the war by Russia against Ukraine. What do you think about that from.

Nathan, thank you for that. Jill Doherty, you spent many many years based in Moscow until basically the beginning of the war, the war by Russia against Ukraine. What do you think about that from.

Nathan Well, I think that's a really interesting comment, and you know, I'm thinking about the image of Vladimir Putin and NATO. It seems, you know, Putin hates NATO. That's the impression that we get. But I think it's important to remember that after the end of the Soviet Union, the beginning of modern Russia, actually Russia, this would be going back to nineteen ninety one, Russia actually was slowly or at least there was the attempt to bring them into NATO, to make it, you know, a European cooperative venture. There was the North Atlantic Cooperative Council in nineteen ninety one. There was another thing called the Partner for Peace. I actually covered that nineteen ninety four when I was covering Clinton at the White House. Then nineteen ninety seven NATO Russia found a founding act, and then two I'm looking at my notes here two thousand and two NATO Russia Council. So why didn't Russia become part of NATO? Well, I mean this is you know, John, Ambassador Shotack probably knows a lot better than I do. But my feeling about that is, yes, in the beginning, there worthies overtures, and yes, Russia sounded interested. But Russia, even though it was weak, you know, it had fallen apart in Soviet Union in nineteen ninety one. Russia and especially under Putin, still considers itself a great power, and so when it gets into organizations, it not only wants to become a member, it wants to run them. And so I I think that was one of the problems that, you know, as they got more and more, as Brutan got more and more angry at the West for a variety of different things, he also felt that they were being ignored and insulted and it was all kind of fake that NATO was never ever going to decide anything with them, And that's my I think psychological understanding of how that happened.

Nathan Well, I think that's a really interesting comment, and you know, I'm thinking about the image of Vladimir Putin and NATO. It seems, you know, Putin hates NATO. That's the impression that we get. But I think it's important to remember that after the end of the Soviet Union, the beginning of modern Russia, actually Russia, this would be going back to nineteen ninety one, Russia actually was slowly or at least there was the attempt to bring them into NATO, to make it, you know, a European cooperative venture. There was the North Atlantic Cooperative Council in nineteen ninety one. There was another thing called the Partner for Peace. I actually covered that nineteen ninety four when I was covering Clinton at the White House. Then nineteen ninety seven NATO Russia found a founding act, and then two I'm looking at my notes here two thousand and two NATO Russia Council. So why didn't Russia become part of NATO? Well, I mean this is you know, John, Ambassador Shotack probably knows a lot better than I do. But my feeling about that is, yes, in the beginning, there worthies overtures, and yes, Russia sounded interested. But Russia, even though it was weak, you know, it had fallen apart in Soviet Union in nineteen ninety one. Russia and especially under Putin, still considers itself a great power, and so when it gets into organizations, it not only wants to become a member, it wants to run them. And so I I think that was one of the problems that, you know, as they got more and more, as Brutan got more and more angry at the West for a variety of different things, he also felt that they were being ignored and insulted and it was all kind of fake that NATO was never ever going to decide anything with them, And that's my I think psychological understanding of how that happened.

We've got a question from a listener, Peter is in Saint Paul, Minnesota. Peter, what is your question?

We've got a question from a listener, Peter is in Saint Paul, Minnesota. Peter, what is your question?

Yeah, I was just wondering, So NATO has value for defense, and there's been a lot of talk about if the US would pull out and NATO falls apart. I don't understand the link between the US pulling out of NATO and falling apart because I think it would have value for Europe as you know, the European nations that already are in there could stay in there. So that's my primary question is, you know, yes, the value NATO. I think we should stay in, but even if we didn't, I don't understand why NATA then falls apart.

Yeah, I was just wondering, So NATO has value for defense, and there's been a lot of talk about if the US would pull out and NATO falls apart. I don't understand the link between the US pulling out of NATO and falling apart because I think it would have value for Europe as you know, the European nations that already are in there could stay in there. So that's my primary question is, you know, yes, the value NATO. I think we should stay in, but even if we didn't, I don't understand why NATA then falls apart.

Okay, great question, Peter John Shaddock. Why would NATO fall apart necessarily if the US were to pull out of NATO.

Okay, great question, Peter John Shaddock. Why would NATO fall apart necessarily if the US were to pull out of NATO.

Well, I think there are two reasons, whether it would actually fall apart or just sort of begin to disintegrate as another question of those are two similar kinds of phenomenon.

Well, I think there are two reasons, whether it would actually fall apart or just sort of begin to disintegrate as another question of those are two similar kinds of phenomenon.

You know.

You know.

One reason is that it is true that the great bulk of NATO spending and the capacities, and the military capacity and the training and all the rest of it do come from the United States. Increasingly that's being transferred to Europe. And I think that the Ukraine War has led to Europeans, as I said earlier, waking up much more to their need to be active participants in events. So that's one reason the loss of US leadership would be critical. And then the second thing is that I think the European would then pretty much forget about anything that they needed to do on behalf of the United States. I mean, at least theoretically that no longer would the Article five which you cited at the beginning be available to be cited again in the event that the US was attacked. So you know, the US has a very strong and immediate interest in remaining in NATO, and NATO has a very strong and immediate interest in having the US stay.

One reason is that it is true that the great bulk of NATO spending and the capacities, and the military capacity and the training and all the rest of it do come from the United States. Increasingly that's being transferred to Europe. And I think that the Ukraine War has led to Europeans, as I said earlier, waking up much more to their need to be active participants in events. So that's one reason the loss of US leadership would be critical. And then the second thing is that I think the European would then pretty much forget about anything that they needed to do on behalf of the United States. I mean, at least theoretically that no longer would the Article five which you cited at the beginning be available to be cited again in the event that the US was attacked. So you know, the US has a very strong and immediate interest in remaining in NATO, and NATO has a very strong and immediate interest in having the US stay.

Let's go to Jill, who's in Denver, Colorado. Jill, Welcome to the middle What do you think about the value of NATO to the United States.

Let's go to Jill, who's in Denver, Colorado. Jill, Welcome to the middle What do you think about the value of NATO to the United States.

Oh, I think it's very valuable. I agree it is a deterrent when I think as a younger callers Zah said, I don't think a lot of Americans realize, you know, what happened in nineteen ninety one, and that is Suton's main reason, I believe for going into Ukraine. He wants to take back all those territories that were divided up and taken away from the USSR. And if Ukraine had been in NATO, I don't believe it ever would have been invaded. He hasn't invaded Poland, he hasn't invaded in the European countries. And if we're not there, it's going to be like drump said, Oh, let him do what the hell he wants. And that's what I Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of. Is we need we you know, we need each other. We're all in this together.

Oh, I think it's very valuable. I agree it is a deterrent when I think as a younger callers Zah said, I don't think a lot of Americans realize, you know, what happened in nineteen ninety one, and that is Suton's main reason, I believe for going into Ukraine. He wants to take back all those territories that were divided up and taken away from the USSR. And if Ukraine had been in NATO, I don't believe it ever would have been invaded. He hasn't invaded Poland, he hasn't invaded in the European countries. And if we're not there, it's going to be like drump said, Oh, let him do what the hell he wants. And that's what I Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of. Is we need we you know, we need each other. We're all in this together.

Jill, thank you for that, you know, Jill Doherty, she brings up Poland. Many people have said about this war that you know, if Putin gets Ukraine, he's not going to stop there and he'll go after Poland and then we really get Then then an actual NATO country is going to be in the mix. Do you do you agree with that?

Jill, thank you for that, you know, Jill Doherty, she brings up Poland. Many people have said about this war that you know, if Putin gets Ukraine, he's not going to stop there and he'll go after Poland and then we really get Then then an actual NATO country is going to be in the mix. Do you do you agree with that?

Oh, yes, definitely, But you know, I would say, and Jill makes a couple of really interesting points. You know Putin. The way Putin looks at this, if I can jump into his head, is that he feels that NATO is right up against his borders. And so you could say, yes, that's that is true in some cases, especially right now, we've got Finland certainly right on the border and other countries. But I think my question for Putin would be how far do you want this belt, you know, to protect you? He seems to want to have countries along his border that will remain neutral, that's what he's talking about with Ukraine. But how long do you do that? How big is this border? What happens to those countries like Ukraine, like Georgia, albeit they're not ready right now to join name, but they have a right to want to be part of NATO. And this is the big debate, you know, should we have let the Baltics in, should we have let NATO, et cetera. I think that those that if a country does want to get in and can meet the criteria and then most importantly the other members of NATO say yes, then they ought to be in, and that putin should not have any type of you know, consent or negation on that ambasadorsatic.

Oh, yes, definitely, But you know, I would say, and Jill makes a couple of really interesting points. You know Putin. The way Putin looks at this, if I can jump into his head, is that he feels that NATO is right up against his borders. And so you could say, yes, that's that is true in some cases, especially right now, we've got Finland certainly right on the border and other countries. But I think my question for Putin would be how far do you want this belt, you know, to protect you? He seems to want to have countries along his border that will remain neutral, that's what he's talking about with Ukraine. But how long do you do that? How big is this border? What happens to those countries like Ukraine, like Georgia, albeit they're not ready right now to join name, but they have a right to want to be part of NATO. And this is the big debate, you know, should we have let the Baltics in, should we have let NATO, et cetera. I think that those that if a country does want to get in and can meet the criteria and then most importantly the other members of NATO say yes, then they ought to be in, and that putin should not have any type of you know, consent or negation on that ambasadorsatic.

Do you see a moment when countries like Argentina or even countries in Asia end up joining NATO.

Do you see a moment when countries like Argentina or even countries in Asia end up joining NATO.

Well, I think the whole concept of a global alliance for democracy is something that has been considered in the past, and I'm not sure NATO is the vehicle necessarily. NATO is a focus on Europe, but I do think it's important and Jill brought this up earlier. So remember what the values are that NATO is to protect. It's the value of democracy and self determination. And as she just said, now, I mean any country that's really exercising its own self determination through a democratic process, and certainly that's a complicated thing to do. We're having trouble in our own country doing that. But nonetheless, I think any country that can do that really deserves to have allies who are similarly minded, whether they're members of NATO or some other alliance. Now we are also allied with countries in Southeastern Asia, with Australia and New Zealand and a number of other countries, and I think NATO is in a sense of paradigm, it's a kind of example of the kind of alliance that could exist on behalf of democracy in other parts of the world.

Well, I think the whole concept of a global alliance for democracy is something that has been considered in the past, and I'm not sure NATO is the vehicle necessarily. NATO is a focus on Europe, but I do think it's important and Jill brought this up earlier. So remember what the values are that NATO is to protect. It's the value of democracy and self determination. And as she just said, now, I mean any country that's really exercising its own self determination through a democratic process, and certainly that's a complicated thing to do. We're having trouble in our own country doing that. But nonetheless, I think any country that can do that really deserves to have allies who are similarly minded, whether they're members of NATO or some other alliance. Now we are also allied with countries in Southeastern Asia, with Australia and New Zealand and a number of other countries, and I think NATO is in a sense of paradigm, it's a kind of example of the kind of alliance that could exist on behalf of democracy in other parts of the world.

Let's go to Silver. Who's in Pine City, Minnesota. Silver, Welcome to the Middle Go ahead, Yeah, I.

Let's go to Silver. Who's in Pine City, Minnesota. Silver, Welcome to the Middle Go ahead, Yeah, I.

Just wanted to chime in here. I'm listening to your show and I find the conversation extremely interesting. I was born in Estonia in the eighties and moved to Finland with my family in nineteen ninety. At that point this was still officially it was still Soviet Union, although although it was already changing and there was hope, but we wouldn't really, we wouldn't really talk about it then. As a kid, I wanted to be hopeful, and everybody was hoping for there's the free Estonia. But when even in small gatherings. If I would mention that my parents would will immediately shush me. And so we were really cautious about it. On a side note, Estonia is one point three million people, not two point five million people. So we're a tiny country that has always had the compulsory army and as films have as well. But Estonia has never really thought that Russians in tensions wouldn't be to take it, take us back, basically, take take the land. It was always so that that we knew, we knew that that was booting, was all about that. Then even when you know, I feel like Germans were much more positive about it and we're having dinners and thinking that that would actually make a difference.

Just wanted to chime in here. I'm listening to your show and I find the conversation extremely interesting. I was born in Estonia in the eighties and moved to Finland with my family in nineteen ninety. At that point this was still officially it was still Soviet Union, although although it was already changing and there was hope, but we wouldn't really, we wouldn't really talk about it then. As a kid, I wanted to be hopeful, and everybody was hoping for there's the free Estonia. But when even in small gatherings. If I would mention that my parents would will immediately shush me. And so we were really cautious about it. On a side note, Estonia is one point three million people, not two point five million people. So we're a tiny country that has always had the compulsory army and as films have as well. But Estonia has never really thought that Russians in tensions wouldn't be to take it, take us back, basically, take take the land. It was always so that that we knew, we knew that that was booting, was all about that. Then even when you know, I feel like Germans were much more positive about it and we're having dinners and thinking that that would actually make a difference.

What kind of difference did NATO make to you and to Estonia?

What kind of difference did NATO make to you and to Estonia?

Do you think, well, I mean, it's a huge security to us and the alliance and knowing that the Americans have our back back, so what what would we do as this the size of.

Do you think, well, I mean, it's a huge security to us and the alliance and knowing that the Americans have our back back, so what what would we do as this the size of.

Our country, you know, and the distance that we're talking about is if the Russians decided to march into Tally in our capital, you know this, it would be done. It would be over in hours. If we didn't have the alliances like NATO and also the you know, europe is obviously is stronger now. But but a lot of Estonians have gone to Ukraine to voluntarily fight there because they want to keep it out of our backyards. You know, you go out there because otherwise you know what's next.